How to Co-Parent with a Narcissist Ex w. Veronika Archer

[00:00:00] So we're increasing the gap between the trigger and how we respond.

[00:00:04] The way the courts function favors the toxic person.

[00:00:08] We just drag ourselves further down the hole.

[00:00:11] We're not trying to impact the actions of the other person.

[00:00:14] We're trying to support our kids.

[00:00:17] Welcome to AwakenHer, the podcast where women find their strength

[00:00:21] and transform their pain into power.

[00:00:24] I'm Corissa Stepp, your guide on this journey of healing, growth and empowerment.

[00:00:30] Here we share the real stories of women who have faced life's toughest challenges and emerged stronger.

[00:00:37] Together with expert insights to light your path forward.

[00:00:40] Whether you're seeking to heal, grow or empower your life after heartache,

[00:00:45] AwakenHer is here to show you that not only has changed possible,

[00:00:49] but you are capable of achieving more than you ever imagined.

[00:00:54] Let's dive into today's episode and take another step towards becoming your most empowered

[00:01:01] self. Hey, hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode.

[00:01:04] I'm your host, Corissa Stepp.

[00:01:06] And today I am going to be chatting with Veronica Archer about how to co-parent or parallel parent

[00:01:12] with your narcissistic ex.

[00:01:14] Veronica is a mom to three young adult boys and a narcissistic trauma recovery coach,

[00:01:19] supporting high achievers to heal from long-term impacts of emotional trauma

[00:01:23] so they're free to create their legacy.

[00:01:25] She supports forward-thinking parents to break free from co-parenting with a toxic ex

[00:01:30] and empower their kids to thrive despite narcissistic sabotage.

[00:01:34] Veronica, thank you so much for being here. Welcome.

[00:01:37] Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Appreciate you having me.

[00:01:40] Absolutely. So I would love to pick your brain on this topic today because this comes up

[00:01:45] so much in my conversations, especially with my clients about how to prevent

[00:01:50] their narcissistic ex from number one, sabotaging their relationship with their

[00:01:55] kids because sometimes we see a lot of parental alienation through disparagement

[00:02:00] and all these really unkind things that are being said by the narcissistic ex.

[00:02:04] And then how they can be there to be that support that the children need

[00:02:08] through such a difficult transition?

[00:02:11] Yeah, really good questions. So I'll start with the first one,

[00:02:14] which was how to prevent your ex from parental alienation and sabotaging your

[00:02:18] relationship. So the very first thing to know is that you cannot

[00:02:23] you cannot prevent your ex from doing those things. If your ex is truly,

[00:02:28] truly has a personality disorder like narcissistic personality disorder,

[00:02:33] they're going to do those things. So if you have an ex who has been displaying toxic or

[00:02:41] unhealthy or manipulative behavior for whatever reason, but they are not,

[00:02:46] they don't truly have a personality disorder, then some of the strategies that we might be

[00:02:51] talking about today or strategies that your clients may have learned from you or from

[00:02:55] other sources will likely change that person's behavior. When you set clear boundaries,

[00:03:00] when you communicate in a way that's specific to toxic behaviors, that person will change.

[00:03:07] If your ex is truly an NPD or in a cluster B personality disorder, their behaviors will

[00:03:14] not change. And I think this is really important to understand because what I see

[00:03:19] people getting really caught up with is if I can just get my ex to change, everything would be better.

[00:03:25] If I can just get the courts to see what my ex is doing, everything will get better.

[00:03:30] If I can just get full custody, so the focus so often for people and I was there too,

[00:03:37] is that you want the other person's behaviors to change because those behaviors

[00:03:42] can be so, so damaging. And it's really important to understand that nothing you do

[00:03:47] will change those behaviors. So my kids are young adults, I've implemented the tools that

[00:03:51] we're going to be talking about today and just this week, my oldest son commented to me about

[00:03:58] negative things that his dad is saying to him about me still. So that's the very first thing.

[00:04:04] And I think it's really important because when you understand that, then you can stop focusing

[00:04:10] on what the ex is doing and trying to change that because people really get stuck.

[00:04:15] And that's where things don't change because if you're focused on your ex's behaviors and trying to

[00:04:20] change your ex's behaviors or trying to get other people to believe that your ex is doing the things

[00:04:26] that you're saying that they're doing, you're going to be stuck there. And your kids are going

[00:04:30] to suffer and you're going to suffer and you're not going to move forward in creating this

[00:04:33] beautiful life that you want. So that's the very first thing that it's really important to

[00:04:38] understand. Yeah, I mean like I think it's just, it just depletes your energy because

[00:04:41] you're trying to control someone else and you can't control anyone else's behaviors. You can't

[00:04:46] control how other people think or feel or what they express or what they do, and nor can you

[00:04:52] impact how other people are perceiving that behavior, those words or whatever it is that

[00:04:57] they're saying as well. So it's really hard. I just have a quick question. I know you want

[00:05:01] to keep going, but I just have a quick question which is, you mentioned that with NPD, it's

[00:05:05] going to be different than someone who has narcissistic tendencies. And I feel a little

[00:05:09] bit differently about that in the sense that most narcissists don't get the NPD diagnosis.

[00:05:16] So it's very hard to discern whether or not someone can actually change based on purely

[00:05:22] a diagnosis or not. Yes, that's a really good point. I'm glad you brought that up because when I

[00:05:26] talk about NPD or somebody having a personality disorder, I don't mean to imply that they have

[00:05:32] been diagnosed because most of the time they're not. I call my ex NPD even though he's never

[00:05:37] been diagnosed and I'm sure he would fight me saying that, but I know that he is because he is

[00:05:43] so consistent. And he does literally every one of the characteristics that go with NPD and it

[00:05:51] doesn't change. And so that's why one of the first things I commented on is that whether

[00:05:58] the ex is diagnosed, whether they truly are or are not NPD or something similar in that cluster B,

[00:06:06] these things that we're talking about will work either way. Because like I said,

[00:06:10] if they're not NPD, then their actions will change, which is really cool. If they are NPD,

[00:06:15] whether diagnosed or not, actually their actions still will change but not to the same

[00:06:19] degree. And the point is that we're not trying to impact the actions of the other person,

[00:06:25] but rather we're trying to support our kids and ourselves in really having beautiful,

[00:06:30] healthy lives. So yeah, I agree with you that a lot of them are undiagnosed and it's really irrelevant.

[00:06:35] So if you're listening and you're like, well, I don't know if my ex is NPD, oh my goodness,

[00:06:38] please don't dive down the rabbit hole of trying to diagnose them. A lot of us get caught up in

[00:06:43] that just to know if they do some of the things that we talk about. And first maybe,

[00:06:47] I don't know if you want to address that, but there's certain behaviors that you see

[00:06:51] that you're like, okay, my ex is toxic, maybe NPD, maybe in that spectrum. And I need to

[00:06:56] implement these tools instead of co-parenting. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, even with NPD,

[00:07:03] it only lists like nine traits and behaviors. There's a lot more than that. So it goes a lot

[00:07:08] deeper. So I even like to discourage people from looking at the DSM-5 and looking at those

[00:07:12] nine traits and behaviors because your ex might have four out of nine or five out of nine.

[00:07:19] And then what does that mean? Are they less of an NPD? Are they more or less of an

[00:07:23] of a narcissist? And then is it even worth your time to try and diagnose because when we're out

[00:07:28] trying to seek a diagnosis or trying to label or define whether or not they are a narcissist,

[00:07:33] it's almost like because we need that validation of our experience. But we can do that validation

[00:07:38] for ourselves just by understanding the patterns and understanding what their patterns are versus

[00:07:44] what we've experienced and what narcissistic patterns of manipulation and their tactics

[00:07:49] and how they show up and how they behave. And that can give us the validation that we need without

[00:07:55] having that rubber stamp approval. So I just wanted to kind of mention that. The things that I

[00:07:59] normally talk to you with people that I talk about, with people that I work with, is if your

[00:08:04] ex is doing one of these things, and you'll notice that I say ex and parent and they because

[00:08:08] this can be a man or a woman. So a lot of times in our healing space as we talk about men

[00:08:14] being narcissistic and men being abusers. And the fact is that women are just as statistically likely

[00:08:20] to be having MPD as a man. So in case anyone has that question, gender is irrelevant in this

[00:08:26] conversation. So if your ex never takes responsibility and always blames you for everything,

[00:08:33] like everything is always your fault. Like even like the sky's blue, it's your fault,

[00:08:36] the sky's blue. And for some reason that's bad. So they don't take responsibility for

[00:08:39] themselves. They're trying to undermine you as a parent. They're trying to sabotage

[00:08:43] your relationship with your kids. When you try to come to resolution with something,

[00:08:47] to something like have a conversation with them about something, you know, education,

[00:08:51] religion, medical, the things that legally you're required to have a conversation with them about,

[00:08:55] you just find yourself in like endless circular conversations that never get to a resolution.

[00:09:00] You feel like you're going crazy. You're like, what the heck? And there's probably some more

[00:09:03] that I can't think of right now. But those are like the big ones that like if you're

[00:09:07] experiencing that, then I'm referring to your ex as an MPD or toxic and the things we're

[00:09:11] going to be talking about today apply to you. It doesn't matter what their diagnosis is,

[00:09:15] if they're dual diagnosed or their narcissist or not yet as Chris as you said, Chris, I'd like

[00:09:19] do not jump down that rabbit hole of trying to diagnose because you'll make yourself crazy.

[00:09:24] Yes, absolutely. So I'll let you continue from there because I know that you were trying to

[00:09:28] answer one of my questions and I took you a little bit off on a tangent there. So I apologize.

[00:09:34] I'm happy to talk about any aspect of this. So I think your first question was around

[00:09:38] changing their behaviors and I said, we can't do that. And then how do we protect ourselves

[00:09:43] and our children from, I mean, again, like it's to that point of like we can't control what they're

[00:09:48] doing, but how can we do the damage? It's really like damage control, right? Like so we can't

[00:09:52] control someone else's behavior, but we can do the putting out the fire and helping the children

[00:09:58] to feel like they're not caught in between because I think that a lot of times this is

[00:10:02] what happens in these types of relationships when they end. Absolutely. There are a lot of strategies

[00:10:08] and tools that people can implement and we may get to some of those today. I'm not going to talk

[00:10:12] about them right now in the context of that question for this reason. So one of the things

[00:10:17] that I have found the most effective and most important to protect your relationship with

[00:10:22] your child, which then also empowers them to thrive, which is what we ultimately want,

[00:10:27] right? We want to change the trajectory of our kids lives because having a toxic parent,

[00:10:34] having at least even one toxic parent can deeply, deeply impact your children. And I want to be very

[00:10:40] blunt and upfront and transparent about that because it's a fact. I think for me personally,

[00:10:45] I think I lived a little bit like with my head in the sand about what the impacts would be

[00:10:50] to my kids, but we're talking like potential personality disorders in the children or mood

[00:10:54] disorders. We're talking self-harm, including suicide and cutting, drug abuse, difficulty,

[00:11:01] maintaining relationships, depression, anxiety, like really big eating disorders,

[00:11:08] really big things that can result for our children. So our children are impacted by the

[00:11:15] fact that they have a toxic parent. So I say that because so many parents are like Veronica

[00:11:20] are my kids going to be okay and what can I do to make sure they're okay? Your kids are impacted

[00:11:25] by the fact that they have a toxic parent. End of story. You can stop worrying about that.

[00:11:29] You could just put that off to the side and be like, okay, radical acceptance, this has happened.

[00:11:34] Right? It's like if your child was in a car accident and had some major injury,

[00:11:38] it's like, okay, that happened. Cool. Now we want to change the trajectory of our kids' lives.

[00:11:43] We want to move them away from all these things I just mentioned, right? Self-harm,

[00:11:47] depression, all those kinds of things, personality disorders potentially. Right? So what I have found

[00:11:52] that can be most effective is shifting your own internal energy. That is the number one thing

[00:11:58] that I talk about with people in general but with parents specifically. And oftentimes there's

[00:12:05] periods sometimes of like a month or two working with people they're like, Veronica,

[00:12:08] what's the strategy? Like how do I communicate with my ex? What do I say to my kids? And

[00:12:13] it's really hard for people to understand that changing themselves internally is going to have

[00:12:17] this impact. But okay, here's how I want to put it in perspective, right? Narcissists are magical

[00:12:23] creatures. Okay. Here's what I mean by that. Here's what I hear most often and have myself

[00:12:29] experienced. The narcissist can go to court or the toxic ex can go to court, make up all kinds of

[00:12:34] lies and say all kinds of things and the courts will believe them. The narcissist so often

[00:12:39] or the toxic person so often is able to convince people that they're this wonderful, amazing person.

[00:12:46] And I'm going to say narcissist here specifically because this is specific to the MPD

[00:12:50] personality type versus other types of toxic behaviors. People believe them. They seem to

[00:12:56] always get what they want, which is why it's so hard when you have kids with them because

[00:13:01] like the kids will believe them and it just, it makes you absolutely crazy. Why is that?

[00:13:07] I believe it's because they believe what they say with absolute certainty.

[00:13:15] The confidence. Yeah, the confidence. But that confident, okay, we know our narcissist are

[00:13:21] also insecure so bear with me but they have this energetic template within themselves that's like,

[00:13:27] this is how it is. This is what's going to happen. It's this like, it's a really powerful

[00:13:34] energy. Okay, so once I realize that is when everything changed for me in terms of my healing

[00:13:40] and what I teach because I'm like, oh my gosh, it's all about energy. And the thing is we have the

[00:13:45] ability to have that really strong powerful energy as well in our own way, not in that way,

[00:13:51] not in the destructive way. And when you combine energy with strategy with tools,

[00:13:58] that's when things are successful. If you apply tools and strategy without the energetics,

[00:14:05] without your own personal healing, without shifting your own template, the strategy and tools are only

[00:14:10] like, but they're only like, I'm going to make up a number like 10% effective or something. They're

[00:14:14] effective, but just like minimally so. But when you shift your own energy

[00:14:21] and you add these tools and strategies to it then you have to see massive change in

[00:14:25] yourself and your kids. So I want to talk about that a little bit, what that energetic shift is

[00:14:30] that people can make, but I'm going to pause for a minute because I feel like I've been talking

[00:14:33] for a while. Is there anything you want to ask or add to that? Yeah, no, I mean, it's,

[00:14:38] I agree with you. Like I could, I can totally see that. And also, I feel like the behavior

[00:14:42] that you're talking about, like it comes off as a false sense of security because the

[00:14:46] narcissist oftentimes display splitting or what we call black and white thinking, right? It

[00:14:52] either is or it isn't. And so that right there gives them that conviction that mirrors what would,

[00:15:00] someone else would have on the outside would perceive it as that they are confident and

[00:15:05] that what they are speaking is truth. Exactly. Yes. They have exactly as that black and white

[00:15:12] in that belief that what they're speaking is true. And so that's sort of what we want to

[00:15:16] shift into. So one example that you mentioned that I wanted to address was putting the

[00:15:21] kids in the middle, right? So that's one of the things that's really harmful to the kids.

[00:15:25] So the strategy might be, okay, I'm not going to talk bad about the X. I'm going to communicate

[00:15:31] with the X and make sure that we're quote unquote co-parenting or making decisions together.

[00:15:35] And you're like, I'm doing everything I can, but my kids still feel put in the middle.

[00:15:40] And what I discovered for myself is that even though I was saying and doing the

[00:15:46] right quote unquote, right things within myself, I knew that my ex was talking about me was damaging

[00:15:52] my relationship. And I wanted more than anything for my kids to come live with me full time.

[00:15:58] You know, I didn't pursue that. I didn't go to court for that, but I definitely wanted it in

[00:16:03] my being. And I wanted them to have the less of a relationship with their dad and those kinds

[00:16:08] of things. And I had a lot of emotion inside myself, you know, anger, resentment towards him

[00:16:16] and those kinds of things and the desire for them to be with me. And what I believe is that

[00:16:22] they can sense that they can pick up, they pick up on that human beings are very intuitive,

[00:16:28] even if we don't recognize it, kids have not yet been conditioned to not be intuitive.

[00:16:33] And so they pick up on even more than we know or believe that they are. So that's why I talk

[00:16:40] about shifting your energy, because if you can be at a place, I talk about holding the vision,

[00:16:46] right? So holding the vision of the relationship that the kind of relationship you want with

[00:16:51] your child, if your ex were not sabotaging it, holding the vision of the trajectory that

[00:16:57] you want for your child, the future you want for your child. I'm not necessarily talking

[00:17:01] about like, I want my child to be a doctor. I'm talking about like, I want my child to be healthy

[00:17:06] and happy and have a positive relationship with both of their parents or something like that, right?

[00:17:10] You hold that vision, and then you shift your own internal energy to match the vibration of

[00:17:16] that vision. So if you're feeling guilt or resentment towards your ex, that's not matching

[00:17:22] the frequency of I want my child to be healthy and happy and have a positive relationship

[00:17:26] with their parents, right? Then, so this is a whole process, right? Then you're like,

[00:17:30] okay, why do I feel guilt and resentment? You use tools like what you share, Carissa,

[00:17:33] to work on that, right? How do I heal my own guilt and resentment and shift it? This is not

[00:17:38] about fake positive thinking, right? We don't want to deny how we're feeling,

[00:17:42] but we do want to recognize how we're feeling and shift it so that our energy shifts.

[00:17:48] And one, I want to give two examples. One of why I know this to be true and two

[00:17:52] of how this works. So one, how do I know this to be true? Well, my kids are now young

[00:17:57] adults, and so I have the freedom to have more open conversations with them when they were younger.

[00:18:02] And my middle son who's now 20 said to me sometime in this past year about how

[00:18:06] he and his younger brother really felt put in the middle between me and their dad.

[00:18:11] And I asked them, I asked him, I was like, well, why is that? Because I never pressured you

[00:18:17] to choose. I always supported your relationship with your dad. I didn't say this to him,

[00:18:23] but I was thinking, I was like, I did all the things I was supposed to in terms of making sure

[00:18:27] that, you know, dad had equal time, all the things. And he couldn't really think of a specific example

[00:18:34] other than things his dad was doing. So there were things his dad was doing that was making him

[00:18:38] and his brother feel put in the middle. But that's when I really sat with it. And that's

[00:18:42] when I was like the epiphany of, oh my goodness, I never said anything to the kids,

[00:18:48] but I felt it and they knew it. Yeah, I love this because if I can just jump in for a second

[00:18:55] from a human design perspective, I don't know if you're into human design.

[00:18:59] So my listeners are okay. So I'm just thinking even about

[00:19:02] anyone who has an undefined root center or an undefined head center, right? Those are the

[00:19:07] two pressure centers in the chart. You're gonna, and this is how it's going to make sense to

[00:19:12] you. It's like people will implicitly feel you putting pressure on them if you are defined

[00:19:16] in either of those centers when they are undefined. And it's not that you're doing anything,

[00:19:22] it's not that you're saying anything, it is literally down to like you just said the

[00:19:25] energetics of it. And to your point, that person that they will perceive and pick up

[00:19:30] on the things you're not saying, right? That's the intuition part of it. So yes.

[00:19:35] Yeah. And then so then the second part is that I have seen some amazing shifts.

[00:19:41] You know, my relationship was with my boys, they come and go, you know, sometimes they're

[00:19:44] better. Sometimes they're more strained and you know, so there are ups and downs even now.

[00:19:49] But without fail, whenever I, whenever I shift into a space of like grief or guilt or

[00:19:55] things like that, I no longer feel resentment towards my ex. That's true. Not sure that

[00:19:59] that's true. Anytime those emotions come up, my relationships with my kids seem to

[00:20:05] take a turn for the worse. And every time I shift back into holding the vision,

[00:20:09] keeping my own energy centered and clear, my relationship with my kids will just,

[00:20:15] you know, enhance and expand. And this is from, you know, right now two of my kids live in

[00:20:20] another state. So we're not even in the same house. I don't even see them regularly or that,

[00:20:24] you know, that frequently, but even geographically removed, I can be where I am and I can shift

[00:20:29] my energy and I'll suddenly like get a message from my son or we'll have a really beautiful

[00:20:35] conversation or something like that. So I know this to be true because I have observed it with

[00:20:40] and experienced it within myself. And then of course, doing it with my, you know, teaching my

[00:20:44] clients this and seeing the shifts that happen. One of the things about energy is, you know,

[00:20:50] maybe your audience people listening, maybe they're already connected with sort of the

[00:20:54] woo, I don't know. But I think a lot of people think of like this energy kind of work

[00:20:58] and shifting your energy as being, you know, woo and like, I don't know, maybe it's true,

[00:21:03] maybe it's not. I worked as a biologist for 20 years and so it's really important to me to,

[00:21:07] you know, I know something to be true when there's a consistent outcome that can be repeated.

[00:21:14] And so I've taught this now to many clients and I've practiced it myself many times

[00:21:19] and the outcome is consistently the same. That's why I can confidently say like,

[00:21:23] number one thing is shift your own energetic template.

[00:21:27] Yeah, I love that. And thank you for bringing up your background as a scientist because that

[00:21:30] was a very important point I think that people should know because absolutely this

[00:21:34] isn't just coming out of nowhere. It's not this like crazy woo, woo, fairy, airy fairy kind of stuff.

[00:21:38] Like this is there's evidence, right? We have evidence we've you've done the experiments,

[00:21:43] you've tried this, your clients have tried this.

[00:21:45] I'm all about experiments. I experimented on my kids. So sorry, but I did. I mean,

[00:21:50] we all do, I guess parents, right?

[00:21:52] I was gonna say, yeah, parenting is just one giant experiment.

[00:21:55] It's just one giant experiment. Anyways, did that answer your original question? I can't remember.

[00:22:02] I think you did. Honestly, like what you're sharing is so helpful. So

[00:22:05] you've definitely given us so much value already. So I'd love for you to kind of keep going if

[00:22:09] you have got more that you want to share in terms of like the tools because now it's like,

[00:22:13] okay, so how do I go about shifting my energy aside from like holding the vision and what

[00:22:19] else can we do? Because like for me, like as an EFT practitioner, like that's one

[00:22:23] ways in which I use to help shift people's energy, right? To help them release the stagnancies.

[00:22:28] It's also a lot about an outside of just EFT, like a lot of the work that I do,

[00:22:32] there's a lot of somatic work, right? So we're working constantly with the body.

[00:22:36] We're constantly working on understanding our nervous system, how to address our emotional

[00:22:41] triggers, how to release all of that because then we can get to a place I hope because

[00:22:46] this is kind of where I feel like I have done this work on myself and where I see that I'm headed,

[00:22:51] which is that acceptance piece that you touched on before. It's like you come into this acceptance

[00:22:57] of the other person, but it's also an acceptance of yourself and where you're at so that you can be

[00:23:03] true to how you're feeling, acknowledging what you're feeling, but then also allowing

[00:23:08] yourself to process and move through it so that you're not stuck in that energy of it,

[00:23:12] right? So like you mentioned that guilt that a lot of parents feel, especially when they only

[00:23:17] have their kids half the time. And if they were the ones who made the decision to get out

[00:23:21] of the relationship because they recognized that it wasn't healthy, then it can impact the time that

[00:23:25] they spend with their kids because then they're making parenting decisions based upon that guilt

[00:23:30] as opposed to doing it from this place of love and this understanding that, okay, I know this was

[00:23:37] my choice. Yes, there's a part of me that feels bad for it, but I can feel that and I can release

[00:23:42] it so that when I'm with my kids, I'm still providing them with the structure and the discipline

[00:23:48] that they need, but also the compassion and the empathy. Yeah, 100%. I think there's so many things

[00:23:54] I could touch on there, but I want to give those of you listening some tools to kind of walk away

[00:23:59] with if you don't already have them. So one thing, so first of all, I just want to touch on what you

[00:24:03] were talking about because you mentioned somatic and emotional and things like that.

[00:24:06] I talk about healing on seven energy layers and I am offering a free masterclass in February

[00:24:12] on that. And so that is something that is really important is that what I've noticed is where people

[00:24:19] get stuck is they've only focused on one or two layers and it's what you were just talking about,

[00:24:24] right? It's the emotions, it's the body, it's the energy, it's the knowledge. So I'm not going

[00:24:29] to go into that too much right now, but I just wanted to highlight what you just said about

[00:24:34] healing in all these different ways. It's so important. And if you are somebody,

[00:24:39] if you are a parent and you have partial custody or like shared custody, so you have time alone,

[00:24:44] it is so, so, so important when your kids are not with you as you just said,

[00:24:49] to focus on your own healing. I mean, that's the biggest benefit you can give to your kids.

[00:24:55] And if you are somebody who's spending your quote unquote free time writing, rewriting the

[00:25:01] perfect email or text message to your ex because you're trying to resolve something.

[00:25:06] If you are in court and you are spending hours and hours and hours collecting information for court,

[00:25:12] those are some signs that there's something not going correctly or well in the way you interact

[00:25:19] with your ex. And I want to really encourage people listening if this is you what I just

[00:25:24] described to get help from someone like Carissa or myself or there's other resources out there

[00:25:29] to get out of the fight. If you're in court, if it's been more than a year since you've

[00:25:33] left your ex and you're in court frequently and you're spending a lot of your time dealing with court

[00:25:39] matters, you want to get yourself out of the fight. The courts are set up not intentionally,

[00:25:45] but the way the courts function favors the toxic person. And the toxic person loves to fight with

[00:25:52] you and they will fight with you forever. And I promise you if you're somebody who's like,

[00:25:57] because this gets so riled up about this because I have clients going through this who are like,

[00:26:02] oh, when I get to this court decision, then I can work on healing. Then I can work on parenting.

[00:26:07] I need the courts to make this decision, whatever it is, custody, money, etc. I promise you that

[00:26:13] decision is not going to give you the result that you're hoping for in terms of now I'm free to

[00:26:18] do my next step. It's not going to happen. You're going to stay fighting forever and you

[00:26:23] have the ability to get the result you want right now even if there is something that needs

[00:26:27] to be settled in court. There are things that need to be settled in court. I'm not

[00:26:30] saying never go to court, right? You need a custody agreement. You need a divorce settlement.

[00:26:37] All of those things are important. However, you should be spending like very small amounts of time

[00:26:44] and the questions you have that you believe need to get resolved are not going to get resolved

[00:26:49] in court. They're going to get resolved through the work and strategies that Chris and I

[00:26:54] are talking about here. So that's first, oh my goodness, if you're fighting with your ex

[00:26:58] and in court and spending lots and lots of time dealing with your ex, then you need help and please

[00:27:03] get help because you will be there. I had a client, she came to me three years ago and decided that she

[00:27:09] was going to go through court and then came back to me three years later and was like,

[00:27:13] I need to work with you now and things are really, really, really bad. I won't go into

[00:27:17] details but really bad. I have another person I spoke with who's been in court for 12 years.

[00:27:23] So please don't do that. If you're listening, please don't do that. Get help.

[00:27:28] Yeah, I had a woman... I'm just going to share this real quickly because it's not related to court,

[00:27:32] but to your point you mentioned this, but I want to just highlight it. I had this conversation

[00:27:36] with a woman who has been divorced from her ex for almost a decade, remarried for seven or eight

[00:27:43] years and still gets triggered by every text and interaction she has with her ex and spends

[00:27:51] hours writing and rewriting those text messages and her correspondence back to him that she gets

[00:27:57] herself so worked up that she's never... She hasn't been able to heal from it and it's impacted

[00:28:03] her relationship with her kids. It's impacted her quality of life. It's impacted her health

[00:28:08] and it's just like what we're basically doing is like was we continue to engage in that way

[00:28:11] with the narcissist. We just drag ourselves further down the hole.

[00:28:16] Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because that was my actually the second point.

[00:28:19] So the first point is when your kids are not with you and even if they are,

[00:28:24] especially if you're a parent who has primary custody of your children, it's really important to

[00:28:28] focus on your own healing. And if you don't have the time or resources to do that, get help

[00:28:33] so that you can learn how to get the time and resources to do that because it's the most

[00:28:37] important thing. Okay, the other thing was what you just... Second point is what you just

[00:28:41] mentioned triggers and ruminations. Learning how to not get triggered. It is 100% possible

[00:28:48] to communicate with your ex. If you're a parent, you are communicating with your ex,

[00:28:51] you probably have to and to not get triggered but it is a process and it's the healing work,

[00:28:57] Chris, that you do in terms of really understanding what is underneath that trigger.

[00:29:02] And that's one of my specialties as well is understanding what is causing you to be triggered.

[00:29:08] And one of the clients that I worked with, she came to me because she had been in therapy

[00:29:12] for 18 months and found therapy helpful and useful and all those things,

[00:29:15] but she was still feeling triggered. And when I use that word, it's like what you just described.

[00:29:19] It's you get a message and now your hours and hours or days of emotions, of trying to solve it,

[00:29:26] maybe you're curled up in the field position in bed, eating everything in your refrigerator,

[00:29:31] whatever your response is, right? So that's what I mean when I say triggered.

[00:29:35] And so she came to me because she... Her therapist told her she couldn't be free

[00:29:40] from triggers. She would just have to learn how to manage them. I was like, no, no, no,

[00:29:44] and within... I forget how long she said. I think within like three months,

[00:29:48] she was at a point where the trigger would last minutes. So she would still have an emotional response,

[00:29:54] but it was like minutes. And now she's a couple of years out and she doesn't feel

[00:29:59] triggers at all anymore. So one, self healing, two, which is related to the self healing is

[00:30:05] being free from triggers. It's going to be almost impossible for you to parent effectively

[00:30:10] if you're triggered by your ex. And then also, you're going to be triggered by your kids

[00:30:15] because they might be saying things that you know is really coming from your ex.

[00:30:19] They might have characteristics that remind you of your ex. They might just be freaking...

[00:30:25] Kids who do things that are as difficult to deal with, right?

[00:30:29] Or they come home from the, your ex's house and because you're the safe parent,

[00:30:35] they just can't... They're completely emotionally dysregulated.

[00:30:39] And then that can cause you to get dysregulated and then you're in a heightened situation that

[00:30:43] doesn't feel good for anyone. Exactly. I want to talk about that third too.

[00:30:47] And then also, you might be getting triggered by like therapists or court, lawyers, judges,

[00:30:52] teachers who don't understand what it's like to have a manipulative ex because it's a very

[00:30:58] specific experience. So learning how to not be triggered and healing, which is really

[00:31:04] closely connected to the first point of self healing, is really, really important for you

[00:31:08] to effectively parent. So those are the first two steps. Now, the third one is what you just

[00:31:13] mentioned, Carissa, is what your child is experiencing at the other parent's house.

[00:31:16] So it's really important to recognize that your child is experiencing trauma consistently

[00:31:23] if they still have contact with the other parent. So their nervous system is dysregulated.

[00:31:28] They feel unsafe and that results in all these kinds of behaviors like you just mentioned,

[00:31:32] you know, coming from the other parent's house, you know, you're the safe parent and now

[00:31:36] they're able to just explode all over the place and things like that. And the reason I say that is

[00:31:41] so important to recognize is because the first two things that you're, that I just mentioned,

[00:31:45] your self healing and being free from triggers, your child is going to reflect your state of

[00:31:51] being. So we're back to the energetics and then picking up on your emotions and your energy.

[00:31:57] If you're regulated, it's going to help them regulate. So first of all, that's part of it.

[00:32:03] The other part is that the way that most of us, I think we're a lot, you know, culturally, we're sort

[00:32:10] of taught to parent like you had mentioned, like discipline and structure and boundaries.

[00:32:15] Yes, those things are important for a child. However, the way you choose to parent when

[00:32:19] they have a toxic ex is probably going to look different. And the reason for that is couple

[00:32:26] things. One, they are receiving no validation or very little validation, very little love,

[00:32:33] very little meeting of their needs when they're at the other parent's house.

[00:32:37] They're probably spending all of their emotional energy meeting the needs of the parent,

[00:32:41] whether it's emotional needs or sometimes they're actually parenting the other parent,

[00:32:46] you know, there's all kinds of things happening. So their needs are not being met.

[00:32:51] And when they come to you, they need that. They need you to connect with them.

[00:32:58] They need you to meet their emotional needs. It is not the time for discipline and boundaries.

[00:33:05] It's just not and it's, it's something that's really, really difficult because other parents

[00:33:10] who don't have this who are co-parenting or have a partner or a healthy partner,

[00:33:15] they're like, why aren't you sending more boundaries for your children? Why do you

[00:33:17] do so many things for your children? And they might think that you're overly

[00:33:21] permissive parent, but it's really, it's even more important for you to really connect with

[00:33:28] your kids. So when they're having, they come back from the other parents house and they're

[00:33:32] having that emotional reaction on transition day, you recognize that. And instead of being like,

[00:33:38] well, no whatever video games for you because you're yelling at me, instead it's like, oh,

[00:33:43] maybe you need to go to your room and relax and then why don't be angry? Or maybe you

[00:33:48] plan something physical because physical movement is really good for processing those emotions,

[00:33:52] you know, but you don't implement structure and discipline on transition day. 100% not because

[00:33:58] they need that space. So the third piece that I wanted, so the first one is self healing,

[00:34:05] second one is being free from triggers. And the third one is understanding that your kids

[00:34:10] need something different because they are consistently experiencing trauma. And so really

[00:34:16] being able to be present and emotionally connected and providing them with that safe space

[00:34:23] to be emotionally connected is the most important things that you can provide.

[00:34:28] And discipline, you do want structure, structure is important, but discipline oftentimes

[00:34:33] needs to go in the back burner. And I in fact have a situation where I attempted tough love

[00:34:40] with one of my kids because they were going through something pretty extreme. And I was like,

[00:34:45] they were using drugs. And I was like, well, you can't use drugs in my house. Guess what they did?

[00:34:50] They went and lived with dad, right? So then I talked with a therapist who specializes in

[00:34:59] parental alienation. And she was like, yeah, tough love does not work when you have a toxic X,

[00:35:06] even when you're dealing with something like drugs.

[00:35:09] Right. So what do you do? What's the answer? I feel like I'm trying to think about

[00:35:13] putting myself in your shoes. Like you, they need to know that it's not okay.

[00:35:17] You also don't want to enable them, right? Like you don't want to create a codependent

[00:35:20] relationship either. You need to help them feel empowered. But how do you do that in a

[00:35:24] situation where they're doing something that's harmful? Yeah. So what's really important is

[00:35:29] learning to connect with your child. Right. So this, this has been, this is a few years

[00:35:34] back, right? So definitely one of the things I feel like I did not well early on in the divorce

[00:35:40] is finding that emotional connection because I was implementing structure and discipline or

[00:35:45] attempting to, you know, all those things. Right. So this was, so I'm sharing this as from

[00:35:49] learned experience rather from having done this well, right? And the number one thing you can do

[00:35:54] is, is learn to connect with your child. And it's something that people really struggle with,

[00:35:58] especially when you have a toxic X who's constantly undermining you, but find those

[00:36:03] things like something you have in common, something you do every single week,

[00:36:07] maybe it's going on, you know, an activity that they like to do. Maybe it's, you know,

[00:36:12] whatever it is having dinner together. That was something we did do is we had dinner together,

[00:36:16] but create opportunities for connection. And hopefully that will minimize or avoid some of

[00:36:22] these bigger events, right? So something I could have done differently in this particular

[00:36:27] situation has been like, wow, honey, like, I'm really concerned that you're using drugs.

[00:36:33] Let's talk about like, you know, why that is and what that is and putting giving empowering them

[00:36:40] is really important rather than like top down like authoritative parenting. Right. So then that

[00:36:47] particular moment, because it felt so extreme to me, I switched into authoritative parenting,

[00:36:53] right? Well, that's probably from fear of when we're afraid of a potential outcome or someone

[00:36:59] getting hurt that we love, we want to control it. We want to control it. Exactly. And so something

[00:37:05] that may have been worked better is like, let's figure out what's going on that you feel the need

[00:37:10] to use drugs and what do you need? And how can I support you? What would feel better for you?

[00:37:15] He probably would have said, I don't know, because that's his response to anything, right?

[00:37:19] But another was so the bottom line for listeners from that example is to find ways

[00:37:26] to achieve that structure because correct, you don't want to be permissive. So I had so this

[00:37:32] parenting with a narcissistic ex, I think is one of the most difficult and most painful things,

[00:37:37] because you're constantly walking that line. So you want to have structure and be there for

[00:37:43] your child and support them without enabling or being permissive, right? So it's finding that

[00:37:48] point of connection and giving them some choice and power. How would you like,

[00:37:53] this is not okay. You can't do drugs in my house. What are some ways that we can address this?

[00:37:58] What are some things that you're willing to do? You willing to go to a counselor? Are you willing

[00:38:02] to have daily room checks? I'm going to check your room. Maybe you don't ask their permission

[00:38:07] for that. Maybe you just do it, right? But finding ways to implement that structure

[00:38:13] without the tough love, without the, you know, you have to do this. And then they're like,

[00:38:19] all right, fine. We'll go to the other house. Yeah. I think even just as a parent is understanding

[00:38:24] that when they become dependent on a substance or they're doing something that's self-harm,

[00:38:30] understanding that it's their attempt to numb themselves from emotional, spiritual, maybe

[00:38:37] even physical or psychological pain that they are experiencing and recognizing that,

[00:38:42] you know, don't make it about you, right? Like don't internalize that like it's your fault

[00:38:46] or you should have done this better or you should have done something different or,

[00:38:49] you know, whatever it might be. It's more about looking at them and having that empathy for,

[00:38:54] well, what's really going on underneath? Like at a deeper level. And then to your point,

[00:39:00] like asking them those questions either to get to that truth or if they're not willing

[00:39:05] to be open to sharing with you vulnerably because maybe there is maybe some sense of

[00:39:09] shame about it because that can happen as well, right? They know probably deep down that

[00:39:13] this is not something that they should be doing. And maybe they're ashamed that they can't

[00:39:17] stop or whatever it might be. So asking that question of like, well, how can I support you?

[00:39:23] What support would feel good for you? Would it be talking to someone else? Like who do we trust

[00:39:29] that you can talk to, right? Because opening up those lines of communication and like you said,

[00:39:35] like creating that deeper connection is more important than the you can't do that and

[00:39:41] that's not allowed and making them feel even worse about it.

[00:39:45] Right, exactly. And you know, to kind of follow that through is so in that particular example,

[00:39:50] he went to go live with dads. I had my moment of freaking out and what can I do?

[00:39:54] And then moved into that acceptance and I went back to hold the vision, shift my energy,

[00:39:59] not take it personal, you know? And I reached out to him and said, you know, I don't think

[00:40:05] I handled this in the best possible way. And for that, I'm sorry, and I'm here for you.

[00:40:09] And, you know, we continue to have a relationship and he's by the way doing well. This was a couple

[00:40:13] of years ago. He's doing well now. And we were able to we were able to then communicate and

[00:40:19] maintain a relationship even though he went to go live with dad. It was like my worst fear, right?

[00:40:25] We were still able to have a relationship because of the first two steps. And what you

[00:40:30] were just talking about not taking it personal, right? The only way you can really do that

[00:40:35] is if you've done yourself healing and you've learned how to be free from triggers,

[00:40:39] and then you can implement parenting approaches and tools. But those first two are so important

[00:40:45] to have in place because otherwise, like you as a parent with a toxic X and a manipulative X,

[00:40:51] you are going to face things that are really painful, that are going to feel personal,

[00:40:56] all these kinds of things. And there's no way to navigate those effectively when you are

[00:41:03] taking them personal, you're feeling pain. Yeah, I just want to say one thing about like

[00:41:08] being free from triggers because I don't want people to be under the impression that they're

[00:41:11] never going to get triggered again because they will and other relationships. I think

[00:41:16] what you're trying to describe is like the things that may have triggered you in the past

[00:41:20] in your relationship with your narcissistic X are things that you can create space, right?

[00:41:26] Like for my experience, it's like we're increasing the flexibility in our vagal break,

[00:41:31] so to say. So we're increasing the gap between the trigger and how we respond. And the way we do that

[00:41:38] is by doing this deep inner work to understand what it feels like in our body when we're triggered,

[00:41:45] what emotions are coming up, and then what are the thoughts? What are the stories?

[00:41:50] What are the beliefs that are tied to that? And how do we disentangle from it

[00:41:54] so that we can understand a lot more quickly? What core wound is being poked and prodded

[00:42:01] in that moment so that we can then reaffirm for ourselves that, okay, I understand my belief

[00:42:07] that I'm not important got triggered in this moment. Now, how do I want to respond so that

[00:42:11] I don't have to have that emotional overreaction or come in with my defensive coping mechanisms

[00:42:19] in order to battle and to fight it out? Right? I can come from a more grounded

[00:42:23] perspective and rationally engage in a way that feels more maybe vulnerable, but maybe also that

[00:42:31] is more productive to having effective communication about whatever's going on.

[00:42:38] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's definitely the process that I teach as well in terms of

[00:42:44] triggers. I will say that you don't want to give the impression you'll never be triggered again.

[00:42:50] Yes, we're human beings. We're going to have emotional responses. That's just how we're designed.

[00:42:56] However, I will say that for me at least and for my clients that I've worked with,

[00:43:01] once you really understand a core wound that's causing you to be triggered and you've shifted it,

[00:43:07] you are not likely to be triggered about that again. And so when I say triggered,

[00:43:13] just to clarify, it's what you just said an overresponse, a disproportionate response to a situation.

[00:43:21] So I'm glad you brought this up actually because I've had clients ask about this.

[00:43:26] When I say that you'll never get triggered, I don't mean that you're not going to have emotions.

[00:43:31] For example, I've had clients that I've worked with for a while who come to me and they're

[00:43:35] like, Veronica, I was so angry this weekend and I thought I was done with being triggered

[00:43:40] and I don't understand. And I'm like, share with me what happened. They share and I'm like,

[00:43:44] you're angry because that's the valid response for that situation. It doesn't mean that you're triggered.

[00:43:51] So to me, triggered means something happens and you have a disproportionate response or an

[00:43:56] emotion that doesn't match the situation. And it causes, like we were talking about earlier,

[00:44:01] this like hours or days of being in that emotion and trying to resolve it and

[00:44:07] ruminating thinking about it. That when I say triggered, that's what I mean. So from that standpoint,

[00:44:13] I would say, yes, you can get to a point where you won't be triggered again.

[00:44:18] You might have an emotion, but you have the emotion and you're like, I see you

[00:44:22] emotion. And then you move on with your right, you're able to respond, you're able to respond

[00:44:26] instead of react. You're no longer acting from that emotion. That's the point. It's

[00:44:31] like you're not acting from that emotion or even the thoughts and the beliefs that that

[00:44:36] emotion sponsors. And that's where you unblend from all of that, right? You gave us good tools

[00:44:42] and good insights. I appreciate it so much. And I know that the listeners absolutely got something

[00:44:47] out of this conversation for sure. So thank you for sharing your brilliance, your wisdom,

[00:44:52] the evidence and the experiments that you have tried and tested and sharing those results

[00:44:56] with us so that everyone can see a path forward on how they can move through

[00:45:01] something that feels really difficult because as you know, parenting is hard enough as it is

[00:45:04] and then having to do that with someone who is toxic and unhealthy can be even more stressful.

[00:45:10] And it can leave us in a state of overwhelm where instead of being the parent that we want to be,

[00:45:17] we're overwhelmed and we're exhausted and we're numbed out and we are not able to connect them

[00:45:22] in the way that we want to with our children. So thank you so much, Veronica. Is there anything

[00:45:26] else that you'd like to share with the listeners or anything that you have coming up that you

[00:45:30] want to let them know about? Yeah, thank you so much. It's my absolute pleasure to be here and

[00:45:35] I really love supporting parents who have a toxic X because it's I think it's one of the most

[00:45:40] difficult and most painful things to navigate. So I love supporting parents with that. And I do

[00:45:45] have a free masterclass that I'm happy to offer to your listeners that goes into more depth

[00:45:52] about the things that we're talking about here today. So it's three pillars. One is

[00:45:58] healing yourself. The second one, which we didn't talk about so much is healing your child

[00:46:02] through trauma healing parenting. And then the third step is navigating the system,

[00:46:07] the tools and strategies for when you're dealing with courts and all the different secondary

[00:46:12] parties that are involved when you're parenting and how to navigate them effectively because

[00:46:16] your ex is constantly trying to undermine and sabotage you. So I think it's a three-part

[00:46:21] masterclass with two bonuses that goes into those three pillars. Awesome. Thank you so

[00:46:26] much. That's so generous of you and listeners, we're going to include the links in the show notes

[00:46:30] so that you can find it easier. And then you'll also be able to connect with Veronica directly

[00:46:34] because we'll have all of her contact information in there as well. Thank you so much again,

[00:46:38] Veronica, for taking your time to have this conversation and for the work that you're

[00:46:42] doing in this world. Thank you for tuning in to awaken her. Today's conversation may have

[00:46:48] ended but your journey towards healing and empowerment is ongoing. Remember, every

[00:46:53] challenge you face is an opportunity to grow stronger and more resilient. If our stories today

[00:46:58] inspired you, consider sharing this episode with someone who needs these empowering messages.

[00:47:04] I'm Karissa Stepp, cheering you on as you take the steps to heal, grow and transform your life.

[00:47:09] Keep believing in yourself and until next time, stay empowered.