Recovering From Abuse: A Guide To Healing w. Jennifer Parker

[00:00:00] When we're going to respond to an email or responding to a text,

[00:00:03] chat GPT is actually amazing to rewrite it where it's brief,

[00:00:09] it's informative, it's non-emotional and it's firm.

[00:00:13] I don't want to rock the boat that makes me feel uncomfortable.

[00:00:17] Welcome to Awaken Her, the podcast where women find their strength

[00:00:21] and transform their pain into power.

[00:00:24] I'm Corissa Stepp, your guide on this journey of healing, growth and empowerment.

[00:00:30] Here we share the real stories of women who have faced life's toughest challenges

[00:00:35] and emerged stronger together with expert insights to light your path forward.

[00:00:40] Whether you're seeking to heal, grow or empower your life after heartache,

[00:00:45] Awaken Her is here to show you that not only is change possible,

[00:00:49] but you are capable of achieving more than you ever imagined.

[00:00:54] Let's dive into today's episode and take another step towards

[00:00:57] becoming your most empowered self.

[00:01:01] Welcome to Awaken Her.

[00:01:03] I'm your host, Corissa Stepp.

[00:01:04] Today, I'm going to be chatting with Jennifer Parker,

[00:01:08] who's been a guest on the show before.

[00:01:10] She is a therapist who specializes in intimate partner abuse.

[00:01:14] As a result of her work and the inspiration that she has received

[00:01:18] from working with all of these incredible survivors,

[00:01:21] she has also written a book called Coercive Relationships,

[00:01:25] Find the Answers You Seek.

[00:01:27] So today I have invited Jennifer to come back onto the show

[00:01:30] because we had an amazing conversation back in the fall

[00:01:34] about what a coercive relationship is, what it looks like,

[00:01:38] how we can begin to identify if we're in a coercive relationship.

[00:01:42] And today is part two of that conversation

[00:01:45] where we're going to be chatting about what to do now that we know

[00:01:49] if we have identified that we have been in a coercive relationship,

[00:01:52] how do we survive it? How do we get through it?

[00:01:55] How do we build resilience to become more empowered

[00:01:59] after we've experienced something that has been so hugely impactful

[00:02:03] on our own well-being?

[00:02:05] How do we pull through so that we can rise from the ashes, I will say.

[00:02:09] Jennifer, thanks for being here.

[00:02:10] I love that image, rising from the ashes.

[00:02:13] Yes. Thank you for having me again.

[00:02:15] Yeah. So what...

[00:02:17] Can we just start off the conversation here with

[00:02:19] what are some things that people can do

[00:02:21] if they recognize that they are getting out of

[00:02:23] or they've been in a coercive relationship?

[00:02:26] What can they begin to do to start to recover from that?

[00:02:29] Wonderful question. I'm glad we're focusing on that.

[00:02:32] And you know what? They're already doing something.

[00:02:34] If they are a survivor watching this podcast or listening to this podcast,

[00:02:39] this is something that's very important

[00:02:41] because when you're in an abusive relationship,

[00:02:43] often your information, you know, they cut off contact or isolate

[00:02:47] or you just don't have the energy to be looking for it.

[00:02:49] Finding those sources that are inspirational to you,

[00:02:52] that give you information about what's been going on

[00:02:55] or what did go on in your relationship is very important.

[00:02:58] So that might be podcasts, books, joining Facebook groups,

[00:03:02] whatever fits for that person.

[00:03:04] And certainly also reaching out to other people

[00:03:07] so that they're not isolated,

[00:03:09] maybe joining a support group, those kinds of things.

[00:03:11] So that's a very, very important thing that I want to just say.

[00:03:15] And then as part of that, and I know...

[00:03:18] So what I'm about to say is gonna be different

[00:03:22] is going... people are gonna respond to that differently

[00:03:24] depending on whether they're still in the relationship

[00:03:27] or they're already out of it.

[00:03:28] So I just want to recognize that.

[00:03:30] When I'm talking about doing things,

[00:03:32] I want you to know that I know that if you're still in that relationship,

[00:03:35] it's much more difficult to do those things.

[00:03:38] And I'll try to talk about maybe some ways that you can use them.

[00:03:41] But just bear in mind, don't feel shame because,

[00:03:44] oh, I can't do that because that's just normal.

[00:03:47] And so what you do is you begin to do it a step at a time.

[00:03:50] The very most important thing, getting information, I said,

[00:03:54] but also connecting to people

[00:03:56] because frequently you've become isolated

[00:04:00] either because your partner wouldn't allow you to be around friends or family

[00:04:04] or go to church or whatever your source of community is,

[00:04:08] or you begin to feel so bad about yourself that you withdraw

[00:04:12] or you don't want people to know what's going on.

[00:04:15] And so both of those things can act together.

[00:04:17] And so finding ways to reconnect is really important.

[00:04:20] And I know how hard that can be if you're still in the relationship.

[00:04:24] Sometimes the first connection that you make is maybe a helper of some kind,

[00:04:28] a therapist, a coach, somebody who understands what you're going through.

[00:04:32] Maybe it's joining a support group.

[00:04:34] There are domestic violence programs

[00:04:36] that hopefully are in your area that you can contact.

[00:04:40] So sometimes that's the first way to begin to do that.

[00:04:42] And then reaching out if you have become estranged from people,

[00:04:47] reaching out, letting them know what's going on as you can.

[00:04:50] But it's so important because we are social beings

[00:04:54] and we can't do this all by ourselves.

[00:04:56] And so if you're feeling helpless, hopeless,

[00:04:59] it's like we need those connections.

[00:05:01] So I really encourage that.

[00:05:02] When you've been in an abusive relationship...

[00:05:05] Well, first of all, let me back up a little bit.

[00:05:06] I'd like for people who have been in an abusive relationship

[00:05:10] to imagine a time when they have maybe they've been verbally abused

[00:05:16] and that it's really caused them to have very strong emotions,

[00:05:21] to be extremely upset.

[00:05:22] Maybe they're frustrated, maybe they're angry,

[00:05:25] maybe they're feeling helpless and sad.

[00:05:27] But to know that is the setting in which I'm talking about using these

[00:05:31] and kind of imagine what it might be like to use some of these things.

[00:05:36] OK?

[00:05:37] But I don't want you to do it to the extent

[00:05:41] that it's like you're feeling those emotions, strong emotions again.

[00:05:44] Just remember, OK, this is a time

[00:05:45] when maybe I could have used this.

[00:05:47] If you are not someone who's been in an intimate partner abuse relationship,

[00:05:51] see yourself as a possible ally to someone who has been.

[00:05:55] And so see maybe you can't imagine these things,

[00:05:58] but you can.

[00:05:59] All of us have been through times where we get extremely angry

[00:06:03] with our sister or our friend or whatever.

[00:06:05] We have some strong emotion or maybe we're feeling jealous or whatever.

[00:06:09] And so you can imagine times when you could also use these things.

[00:06:13] OK?

[00:06:13] So we talked about how important it is to have a support network.

[00:06:17] So for some people, talking to someone is the most important thing,

[00:06:21] is to be able to tell their story, to be able to do that.

[00:06:26] However, it's not always possible to talk to someone,

[00:06:29] either because you don't have those someone's in your life right now,

[00:06:32] but also because they're just not going to be available all the time.

[00:06:36] So it's important to have some other ways to help yourself with that.

[00:06:39] Some grounding to be able to center yourself,

[00:06:42] to get back to yourself.

[00:06:43] So one thing that is kind of universally helpful for many people

[00:06:49] is to be in nature, to just take a moment to walk and so forth.

[00:06:53] And so I just want to recognize that is something that many people can use.

[00:06:57] However, we can't always use it.

[00:06:59] So an immediate thing that you can do is to focus on your breathing.

[00:07:04] So just imagine taking a deep breath or take a deep breath right now

[00:07:08] and let it out and do that.

[00:07:12] Take two or three and just notice what that does for your body.

[00:07:15] When I was working with people as a therapist,

[00:07:19] I would often when I first met them and we were beginning to look at

[00:07:23] what would be helpful in terms of managing the strong emotions they're feeling,

[00:07:27] I would have them do that for a couple of minutes in my office

[00:07:30] and I'd do it with them.

[00:07:31] So it's not like, oh, I'm watching you like a hawk.

[00:07:33] I would do it too.

[00:07:35] And then I'd ask them, so how did that go for you?

[00:07:37] Because it works for many, many people, but not everybody.

[00:07:40] So I don't want anybody to feel like something's wrong with them.

[00:07:43] If it doesn't work, it doesn't work for everybody.

[00:07:46] However, give it a try and that can reset oftentimes your emotions.

[00:07:52] If that does not work,

[00:07:54] I have something that's been helpful for pretty much everybody.

[00:07:58] I can't remember anybody that wasn't helpful

[00:08:01] in terms of resetting their emotions.

[00:08:03] And that's something I call five, five, five.

[00:08:07] That means they focus on five things

[00:08:09] that they see and take their time about it.

[00:08:11] There's an abundance, usually, of many things to see.

[00:08:14] So just name it to yourself or if you're by yourself,

[00:08:17] you can name it out loud.

[00:08:18] And then you name five things that you hear

[00:08:22] and then you name five things that you feel in your body.

[00:08:25] Now, that doesn't mean an emotion.

[00:08:27] It's a sensation in your body.

[00:08:30] So maybe it's the feeling of your feet on the floor

[00:08:33] or your leg crossed across another or a headache or tension in your neck.

[00:08:39] Things like that.

[00:08:40] So name five of those and then go back and do four of each of those

[00:08:44] and then three of each of those and then two of each of those and then one.

[00:08:49] And you can do it more than that whole set, more than once.

[00:08:52] But generally speaking, that really brings you into the moment.

[00:08:56] It takes you out of your head,

[00:08:58] maybe racing thoughts or disturbing thoughts

[00:09:00] that you're having trouble not thinking about it really takes you out of your head,

[00:09:04] grounds you in the moment in your body.

[00:09:07] And that can be really helpful in terms of resetting.

[00:09:10] I love that.

[00:09:11] And, you know, as a somatic coach, I do a lot of that work with my clients.

[00:09:14] Like we do a lot of different somatic tools to ground them

[00:09:17] when they're feeling emotionally dysregulated.

[00:09:19] So I love those tips.

[00:09:21] Those are amazing tips.

[00:09:23] And I just wanted to touch on real quick the breathing part.

[00:09:26] So the breathing part,

[00:09:28] the thing that I find that is most helpful is not just taking the deep breaths

[00:09:31] because I mean, that helps, but it's more of lengthening your exhale

[00:09:36] versus your inhale, because then you're signaling to your brain that you're safe.

[00:09:40] If you think about when we're in danger or we're feeling threatened,

[00:09:44] we're breathing very much up in our upper chest and it's very shallow.

[00:09:47] But if you're breathing and you're able to exhale for twice as long as your

[00:09:51] inhale, you actually stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system

[00:09:55] and signal to the brain that everything is OK,

[00:09:58] because you wouldn't be able to take that long exhale if you were running

[00:10:01] from danger or fleeing from danger.

[00:10:04] Thank you for adding that, because it's so true.

[00:10:06] And brain science is so helpful in terms of working with people to having them

[00:10:10] understand how the brain works, the fact that maybe they have panic

[00:10:15] attacks or have a very difficult time centering themselves.

[00:10:19] It has everything to do with the trauma that they've gone through.

[00:10:21] So learning about the brain is really important.

[00:10:24] Something that is so I mentioned nature exercise is certainly a good way to

[00:10:29] de-stress the body.

[00:10:31] Journaling, I found, is really helpful, certainly for myself.

[00:10:35] It's something that I've used.

[00:10:37] I've used all these things.

[00:10:38] Me too.

[00:10:38] Journaling is extremely helpful in terms of, first of all, getting it out,

[00:10:43] whatever it is you're feeling.

[00:10:44] So think of it as a venting.

[00:10:46] And for some people, they maybe like to do that in one journal and do

[00:10:50] what I'm going to recommend next in another journal.

[00:10:53] That's totally up to you whether that's helpful.

[00:10:55] The reason it can be helpful to just do the venting part is usually

[00:10:59] talking about, this is what he said or she said and this happened again and I'm

[00:11:04] so upset about it.

[00:11:05] That can be helpful to have in one place because if you tend to doubt

[00:11:10] yourself down the road, if they start making promises or they're being nice

[00:11:14] one day and you think, well, maybe it's not so bad.

[00:11:17] If you're that person, then having that to remind yourself can be really

[00:11:20] helpful.

[00:11:21] Or if you're being gaslit, right?

[00:11:23] Because then you could be like, oh, wait, no, that did happen.

[00:11:25] He did say that.

[00:11:26] And I don't have to doubt that.

[00:11:28] He's telling me he didn't say it.

[00:11:29] I'm like, I haven't no, I've written down in my journal.

[00:11:31] Yes.

[00:11:32] But then it isn't just about venting.

[00:11:33] Also use your journal to begin to reflect, to begin to remember, well,

[00:11:38] this is what my therapist said or this is what I read about or saw on a

[00:11:42] podcast and ask yourself questions to answer the questions like, so what

[00:11:47] would what can I do now?

[00:11:48] What would be best for me to do?

[00:11:50] Maybe I just need to sit and breathe for a little bit, whatever that is.

[00:11:54] How can I think about this differently?

[00:11:56] Sometimes that can be really helpful if somebody, maybe not the abusive

[00:12:02] person, but somebody else has kind of triggered you.

[00:12:04] How can I begin to think about this differently?

[00:12:06] What do I need to do next?

[00:12:08] So that can be extremely helpful, especially when you don't have another

[00:12:12] person around.

[00:12:13] But I found it helpful in terms of if I'm really upset with somebody

[00:12:17] really just thinking through, yeah, I can vent a little bit, but then,

[00:12:21] OK, what's going to be helpful here?

[00:12:23] What do I need to do next?

[00:12:24] How can I handle this in a constructive way?

[00:12:27] Those kinds of things.

[00:12:28] It needs to be safe and private.

[00:12:30] So if you're in a situation where that's not the case, you need to take steps

[00:12:34] to either keep it private, whether that's a, I don't know, a password

[00:12:37] document or you do it at your sister's and you leave it there or at work

[00:12:42] or whatever that might be.

[00:12:44] Yeah, that's what I was going to touch on.

[00:12:45] So thank you for bringing that up because that is really important.

[00:12:48] I've heard way too many stories of women who have had their journals or

[00:12:52] their diaries read by their abusive partner, and it can really just cause a

[00:12:56] very unsafe situation because the abuse can escalate and things can get used

[00:13:00] against them, especially even like in a divorce situation.

[00:13:04] So it's really, really important.

[00:13:06] Thank you for bringing that up, that they need to keep it safe.

[00:13:08] I know that there's apps that you can put on your phone where you have to

[00:13:11] have a password to get into it, that you can just literally type things out

[00:13:16] on your phone or write it out and then just save it there.

[00:13:19] And that's really helpful.

[00:13:20] So thank you.

[00:13:21] Now, we know that gratitude is a great reset in terms of emotions.

[00:13:26] And someone might be thinking, well, how can I be grateful when this is

[00:13:29] going on in my life and totally get that?

[00:13:32] And usually people can think of things they are grateful for if it's the

[00:13:36] flower that they just saw outside or the sun is shining today.

[00:13:41] It's a beautiful day.

[00:13:42] Or I'm so glad my children are in my life or whatever it might be really

[00:13:47] doing that because it's a great reset.

[00:13:49] It's not, it doesn't fix a problem, but it gets you in the right mindset to be

[00:13:54] more proactive for yourself, to be able to think more clearly because when

[00:13:58] we're anxious, when we're afraid, when we're angry, we don't think as clearly.

[00:14:03] And brain science, you know, teaches us that it's like our brains and our

[00:14:07] hearts are not working together.

[00:14:09] I'm forgetting the expression for that.

[00:14:11] That heart math is a really wonderful resource if anybody's interested in

[00:14:15] looking into that.

[00:14:17] But it really focuses on tools of bringing gratitude to your heart, feeling

[00:14:21] appreciation and then asking yourself, OK, now what do I need to do about this

[00:14:26] problem?

[00:14:27] Yeah, I love that.

[00:14:28] And there's definitely something to be sad for that stinking thinking

[00:14:32] because we just create like a feedback loop.

[00:14:35] And so it just creates more negative things and we start to focus more and

[00:14:38] more on the negative.

[00:14:39] So I love that you're suggesting that we have a gratitude practice because

[00:14:42] it can be really helpful with getting into more of a positive thinking,

[00:14:46] positive feedback loop in the brain.

[00:14:48] And yes, that heart-brain coherence is really important.

[00:14:51] The mind, body, spirit, heart connection, all of it.

[00:14:55] So I talked about journaling.

[00:14:58] I talked about talking to someone.

[00:15:00] It's just extremely important to focus on what you think and feel,

[00:15:05] what you're learning about what's happening in your life, be able to do

[00:15:09] that. And it's very difficult because if you're still in the abusive relationship

[00:15:14] and even sometimes when you're not, because we know that there's such a thing

[00:15:17] as post-separation abuse where they still continue to do things that are very

[00:15:21] disturbing, that disturb your life.

[00:15:24] Maybe they constantly you make plans because they're having the children

[00:15:28] and then they change those kinds of things.

[00:15:30] And so it's really important to focus on being able to figure out what

[00:15:37] you want and to bring yourself back to that.

[00:15:39] So that's where journaling can really help not noticing, OK, he or she wants

[00:15:44] to fight about this again and not getting and learning how not to get

[00:15:47] engaged with that.

[00:15:49] You don't have to explain over and over and over again why it's not OK

[00:15:54] for them to change the plans at the last minute.

[00:15:56] You can just say that doesn't work for me and set a limit with that.

[00:16:00] Let's say it's on the telephone.

[00:16:02] I'm assuming now that you're in a safe place, you're not like with

[00:16:05] somebody who's threatening you physically.

[00:16:07] So learning those techniques and I have some resources, I can mention them now,

[00:16:12] but you might want to put them in the program notes of things to do, books

[00:16:16] that are really helpful, tools that are really helpful.

[00:16:19] Bill Addy is really good.

[00:16:21] Caitlin Gillis, who wrote a book called It's Not High Conflict,

[00:16:26] It's Post-separation Abuse, because oftentimes some therapists and some

[00:16:31] family court they see the relationship as high conflict instead of

[00:16:34] recognizing that it's one person who is exercising power and control over

[00:16:38] the other, who's constantly gaslighting or doing those kinds of things.

[00:16:43] And so those kinds of books really have a wealth of information about how

[00:16:47] to respond to that because what we tend to want to do, you know,

[00:16:51] we're nice people, we want to be nice, we want to listen and not interrupt

[00:16:55] and so forth. And that does not work well when somebody is trying to have

[00:16:59] keeps interrupting you and keeps going on the same pathway of how terrible

[00:17:03] person you are because you wanted to divorce them, for instance,

[00:17:06] those kinds of things. And so it's important to get out of the framework

[00:17:10] of, oh, I need to be nice to this person.

[00:17:13] Not that you need to be nasty because that doesn't work either

[00:17:17] for you or in your favor, but that you just need to stay neutral,

[00:17:21] stay firm. There's something called BIF. Keep it brief, keep it informative,

[00:17:26] keep it firm. And the other F is friendly.

[00:17:30] I see that as neutral. It's not like you're trying to be friends.

[00:17:33] It's that you're not being hostile, so neutral.

[00:17:36] That's so helpful. Like that little acronym is just if you can just keep

[00:17:39] that in the back of your mind, that can be so helpful just to reaffirm

[00:17:42] and reassure that like you're following this very simple method of being

[00:17:46] brief, being informative, but being firm and not hostile or friendly.

[00:17:51] I love that.

[00:17:52] And if you are dealing with post-separation abuse, it can be really

[00:17:55] helpful to not have in-person, to keep things pretty much in written form,

[00:18:00] especially if you're going through a divorce because then that serves as

[00:18:04] evidence. So email is better. Maybe text depends.

[00:18:09] Text can be very harassing.

[00:18:10] So I think email is the better kind of form.

[00:18:13] And then if you get something that's really disturbing,

[00:18:16] you also have the advantage of you can pause.

[00:18:19] You don't have to respond right away and you can run it by somebody else.

[00:18:23] It's like this really doesn't seem right.

[00:18:25] What do you think?

[00:18:26] You know, because self-doubt can creep in too easily,

[00:18:29] especially when they're continually telling you you're wrong.

[00:18:32] And so it's really helpful to be able to check it out with somebody else.

[00:18:36] Maybe it's a therapist, but maybe it's a friend, someone you can trust that

[00:18:40] is going to be helpful to you and objective and supportive.

[00:18:43] The one thing that I think is actually really helpful if we look at this

[00:18:46] from when we're going to respond to an email or responding to a text,

[00:18:51] chat GPT is actually amazing where you can literally write down

[00:18:56] how you would want to respond, everything you would want to say.

[00:18:59] And then you can ask chat GPT to rewrite it where it is again,

[00:19:03] it's exactly what you said, where it's brief, it's informative,

[00:19:07] it's non-emotional and it's firm.

[00:19:10] And this way you can get it all out and then you can have this filter

[00:19:13] to run it through and chat GPT can actually rewrite the entire response in a

[00:19:17] way that takes all the emotions out of it and can be really helpful for you,

[00:19:21] especially if you're in a very agitated or emotionally dysregulated state.

[00:19:25] I have not thought about that, but that is excellent.

[00:19:28] I'm glad you brought that up.

[00:19:30] I'm learning more and more about AI and thinking,

[00:19:33] you know, beginning to see, yes, it can be useful.

[00:19:36] I'm going to have it creating all my content.

[00:19:38] But I love that because, yes, I was just listening to an Ezra Klein show

[00:19:42] where they were talking about, you can tell it how you want to be

[00:19:46] and then ask it to kind of spit out information and then you can change

[00:19:51] whatever you want to change. Exactly. It's awesome. That's great.

[00:19:54] The other thing that I was going to mention that you brought up that I

[00:19:56] thought was really interesting is that that post separation abuse,

[00:20:00] I do feel like we did, I had a podcast guest on that we talked about this,

[00:20:03] but one of the things that can be really hard is obviously like you can

[00:20:07] get out of a relationship with an abuser, but if you have children with them,

[00:20:10] that's where it can get really sticky and dicey and they can start dragging

[00:20:15] the kids into the chaos as well.

[00:20:17] Do you have suggestions for how women or survivors in general can start to

[00:20:22] manage that in a way where they can protect their children and their

[00:20:27] relationship with their kids?

[00:20:28] Because I know sometimes there can even be parental alienation that can

[00:20:31] happen, and that's really hard and really painful.

[00:20:34] I know extremely painful.

[00:20:36] In fact, many people would say that's the most painful thing that ever

[00:20:39] happened in terms of the coercive control.

[00:20:42] Well, the sad thing is sometimes you cannot protect your children the way

[00:20:46] you would like to, unfortunately, especially if the family court

[00:20:50] counseling does not get what's going on in your relationship.

[00:20:53] So sometimes, you know, I've had to work with people on that.

[00:20:55] There's these skills that I mentioned that you can learn through

[00:20:59] Bill Eddy and Caitlin Gillis, and there's also work that you can do

[00:21:04] in terms of how do you handle what your children come home and say?

[00:21:07] That can be really difficult.

[00:21:09] Sometimes the children understand, you know, they see mom and dad and how

[00:21:12] different it is, but other times they begin to be misled by the person

[00:21:17] who's being coercive, who's saying, Dad, things about you.

[00:21:20] It can be really helpful to work with a therapist or to work with

[00:21:24] someone in terms of how to not put down the other parent, but at the

[00:21:30] same time, be firm and be able to talk to the children about what's going on.

[00:21:34] It is OK to say, your other parent differs from me on this.

[00:21:39] This is how I'm thinking about it.

[00:21:41] Or to say, no, I, you know, I use the child support money to buy

[00:21:47] you clothes and to do other things that support us having a good life together.

[00:21:51] As you know, I don't go on vacations all by myself, you know,

[00:21:55] things like that, and I think it's really helpful to focus on what

[00:21:59] children are feeling.

[00:22:00] So instead of trying to explain or deny things to say, hmm, how does

[00:22:07] how do you feel about that?

[00:22:09] What's it like for you to hear from that from Dad?

[00:22:12] You know, we can't stop Dad from saying those things, but let's talk

[00:22:15] about what could be helpful for you.

[00:22:17] And of course, it depends upon the age of the child, right?

[00:22:19] In terms of how to do that.

[00:22:20] I've also known people who have decided that their children

[00:22:23] benefit from therapy too, but then that can also get complicated if

[00:22:27] the other parent wants to be part of it.

[00:22:29] So there are no hard and fast rules about this.

[00:22:32] You really kind of have to work it out for yourself, and that can be very

[00:22:36] frustrating, but having a supportive therapist or other supportive people

[00:22:40] around you to kind of talk to about that is really helpful.

[00:22:43] Yeah, definitely.

[00:22:44] And I just want to encourage all of the listeners too, that if you're in

[00:22:47] the situation doing the work on yourself is going to help your children as well,

[00:22:52] because the more you can stay emotionally regulated in those moments

[00:22:55] where maybe they're coming back after a handoff and they are completely

[00:22:59] dysregulated and they're all over the place and they've been holding in all

[00:23:02] of these emotions because it's not safe to express these emotions with

[00:23:06] the abusive parent, you know, you're the safe parent.

[00:23:09] And so when they come home, they might just completely explode

[00:23:12] and unleash all of these emotions that they've been holding in the whole time.

[00:23:16] That the more you can stay grounded, the more that you can stay calm,

[00:23:21] the more that you can stay empathetic, the better, because then it'll allow you

[00:23:26] to provide your child with that safe space to allow them to feel those

[00:23:31] emotions, to maybe process those emotions with you when they're calm,

[00:23:35] and then to talk about what would feel most supportive for them in those

[00:23:38] moments when they come back.

[00:23:39] Like how can you make the transition a little bit easier?

[00:23:42] Because I know that that's like a big thing that a lot of people struggle

[00:23:44] with as well, so.

[00:23:45] Totally agree.

[00:23:47] Yes, because it's really difficult to

[00:23:49] for children in terms of adjusting to such different households,

[00:23:53] oftentimes, and the tensions and so forth.

[00:23:56] I've often heard people say that it takes a couple of days before things

[00:24:00] are kind of back to normal with them.

[00:24:02] Another thing I would add is it can be really difficult if a child is

[00:24:07] mimicking, parroting what the abusive parent is saying.

[00:24:11] It can be really difficult because it feels like, oh, another abuser.

[00:24:15] No, your child is not abusive.

[00:24:17] Your child has learned.

[00:24:20] And in fact, maybe that's a survival technique.

[00:24:22] If you have to think about it that way, it's like they,

[00:24:25] you know how difficult it is to stand up for yourself.

[00:24:28] Expecting a child to do that

[00:24:30] in another home with that parent is impossible or really, really difficult.

[00:24:35] So understanding that, yes, they're parroting.

[00:24:38] And then what's important just to say,

[00:24:40] I'm not OK with how you just express that.

[00:24:43] Here's another way that I could hear it better.

[00:24:45] You know, those kinds of things.

[00:24:47] Instead of getting extremely angry or accusing them of being abusive.

[00:24:51] Yes, because you're right.

[00:24:52] The child might feel like the only way to minimize the abuse of the abusive

[00:24:56] parent, right, because we know that there's still obviously going to be a

[00:24:59] dynamic there between the parent and the abusive parent and the child as well

[00:25:03] is if I'm more like them, then they'll stop abusing me.

[00:25:07] Right. Like they think that it'll get better.

[00:25:09] So this is so helpful.

[00:25:11] And so I guess my next question is from a longer term perspective,

[00:25:16] how can women begin to build that resilience to pick themselves back up and move on?

[00:25:23] Right. Because I think that a lot of times they might get out of these

[00:25:25] relationships and they still sort of live a little bit in the past.

[00:25:28] Right. Like reliving a lot of the past of like what has happened.

[00:25:32] And there can be a lot of trepidation and fear of, oh my God,

[00:25:35] this might repeat again if I were to meet somebody new.

[00:25:38] Like, how do they begin to break out of that?

[00:25:40] I want to say like almost a cocoon, right?

[00:25:42] Because they kind of go into this cocoon phase of maybe focusing more on

[00:25:45] themselves, maybe trying to insulate themselves from the abuse, from the

[00:25:49] dynamics, from everything else going on, maybe even like you mentioned,

[00:25:52] like isolating a little bit more from their friends and family until they feel

[00:25:55] stronger, feel more confident talking about it.

[00:25:58] So longer term, like how do they start to build back that resilience and their

[00:26:03] courage and their confidence and their self worth even that might have been whittled away?

[00:26:07] Well, I think this is where it's really important to work on

[00:26:11] regulating their emotions and learning skills in terms of, I call them mind mastery

[00:26:16] skills, like learning self enhancing talk that they say to themselves,

[00:26:21] recognizing their achievements because frequently it's like we only focus on the

[00:26:26] negative, right? I mean, we all tend to do that more than the positive.

[00:26:30] And to really recognize the things that they're doing.

[00:26:32] I really, therapists, that's an important role that they play is to notice those

[00:26:36] things that, oh yeah, I guess that is true.

[00:26:39] Or to go back over what their goals were before and what the progress is.

[00:26:43] And that kind of helps people to recognize that and builds their resilience.

[00:26:48] I think that learning about what are the instilled beliefs,

[00:26:53] what did I begin to believe because of what happened in my relationship?

[00:26:57] Really recognizing those things, you know, recognizing for some people it's

[00:27:01] like the world isn't a safe place, so I have to constantly be hyper vigilant.

[00:27:05] And for others, it might be, I can't trust myself to know whether this is a good

[00:27:10] relationship or not, to know whether or not this person is going to be abusive.

[00:27:14] And so to begin to look at those beliefs and what's the evidence for that?

[00:27:19] What have they learned since getting out of that relationship?

[00:27:23] What have they learned about themselves?

[00:27:25] What have they learned to recognize and to just begin to trust themselves

[00:27:29] with that and to take it slowly?

[00:27:32] I think when you're first beginning to date or to meet new people, it's important

[00:27:36] to certainly not leap into a relationship.

[00:27:39] I'm not saying that all those relationships don't work out,

[00:27:42] but that is a huge tactic of someone who is going to be coercive,

[00:27:48] really controlling if they're in a big hurry to escalate a relationship,

[00:27:52] like to be really intimate right away.

[00:27:54] And so you get to take your time.

[00:27:56] You have the right to do that.

[00:27:57] And if someone is saying, oh, there's something wrong with you.

[00:28:02] That's a huge red flag.

[00:28:03] If that person cannot respect what you need, how you need to do it,

[00:28:08] then that's a huge red flag.

[00:28:09] Yeah. I mean, I would also say that, you know, working on boundary setting

[00:28:13] can be really important too, because I feel like oftentimes the women that get

[00:28:17] into these relationships, they already struggle with boundaries probably

[00:28:20] before they got into the relationship and then they don't really have them

[00:28:23] during the relationship. So even coming out of it, it's like finding the courage

[00:28:27] to set those boundaries that you need to set to keep yourself safe

[00:28:32] are really important.

[00:28:33] And so some of those boundaries are not always external,

[00:28:35] they're also internal, right?

[00:28:37] So like you said, like allowing yourself that time and that space,

[00:28:41] I feel like getting to know and date yourself first

[00:28:44] before you get into another relationship is really important.

[00:28:48] So it's important that you know what you need, what you want,

[00:28:51] what you won't tolerate, what you're not going to settle for

[00:28:54] before you get swept up into another relationship where maybe it feels

[00:28:57] really good in the beginning because there's love bombing happening

[00:29:00] and they're very charming and all the love chemicals

[00:29:04] and neurotransmitters that are happening in the brain

[00:29:06] that feel really, really good.

[00:29:07] But sometimes when we're in that seat, our ability to be

[00:29:11] in our prefrontal cortex to accept or reject what's happening

[00:29:14] or to really be aware of those red flags,

[00:29:17] we can miss them because we're so caught up in the feelings of it all.

[00:29:22] Right. So remember to wait for conflict as inevitable.

[00:29:27] I'm not talking about physical fights or anything,

[00:29:30] but disagreement or maybe you'd rather do this

[00:29:33] and that other person would rather do that.

[00:29:35] How is that conflict is handled?

[00:29:37] And initially we don't tend to have that as much,

[00:29:40] particularly if there's love bombing going on.

[00:29:42] So give the relationship some time so that you know,

[00:29:45] how does that person handle disagreements?

[00:29:48] How do you work together on solving a problem?

[00:29:50] That kind of thing.

[00:29:51] And I guarantee that if you're with somebody who's trying to

[00:29:54] force intimacy sooner, right?

[00:29:56] Or trying to get the relationship to become very serious very quickly.

[00:29:59] If you're good at setting boundaries

[00:30:01] and you're setting boundaries of like,

[00:30:03] no, I need to go be with my friends tonight

[00:30:05] or I'm going to stay home and be by myself and just watch a movie and relax.

[00:30:09] The minute you start setting those boundaries,

[00:30:11] if you notice that they're not reacting to it in a way that

[00:30:15] is respectful of your boundaries and they're giving you a hard time,

[00:30:18] that's going to be a huge red flag.

[00:30:21] Absolutely.

[00:30:22] And I'm glad you brought up boundaries

[00:30:23] because that's another example of a belief that you might have begun to have

[00:30:28] that you don't have the right to set boundaries,

[00:30:30] that it's somehow rude to set a boundary or something like that.

[00:30:34] Yes. Or just using your voice, right?

[00:30:36] Like a lot of women might feel like that's not appropriate for me to use

[00:30:40] my voice to speak up for what I need, to speak up for what I want.

[00:30:43] And that's all part of boundary setting too, right?

[00:30:46] Is being able to communicate those things in a way of someone does

[00:30:49] something and it's hurtful towards you.

[00:30:51] You can say, when you said that I felt hurt.

[00:30:54] And if you had said it this way, then maybe I wouldn't have,

[00:30:57] maybe it would have gone differently or maybe we could have had a conversation

[00:30:59] about it or maybe we could have discussed it or whatever it might have been,

[00:31:02] depending on the situation, of course.

[00:31:04] And how that person responds to it.

[00:31:06] So being able to know that you have a right to set a boundary and then

[00:31:09] learning that it's OK to assert that boundary.

[00:31:12] Assertiveness is not aggression.

[00:31:14] And that's another huge red flag.

[00:31:16] If you're being assertive and you're sure you're being assertive

[00:31:19] and the other person calls it aggressive.

[00:31:21] Oh, then I don't have the right to be who I am or to say my thing without it

[00:31:27] somehow feeling like I'm taking advantage of you because that's a huge belief

[00:31:31] of course of controllers is that if you're being if you're saying something

[00:31:36] different or you're getting what you want, somehow that's controlling them.

[00:31:40] Yeah, that's it's such a mind bending experience oftentimes for sure.

[00:31:46] So, yeah, and I think that sometimes we can set a boundary and we might back

[00:31:50] down very quickly if there is an escalation of someone else's emotions

[00:31:55] around it that we can very much back down because we feel like, oh,

[00:31:59] I want to keep the peace. I don't want to rock the boat.

[00:32:01] I don't want to deal with the repercussions of an emotional outburst

[00:32:06] that makes me feel uncomfortable.

[00:32:07] So I think that a lot that we have to do the work to be comfortable

[00:32:11] with only taking responsibility for our emotions and not taking responsibility

[00:32:17] for someone else's emotions that could cause us to as a result back down

[00:32:21] on the boundaries that we're setting their emotions or their responsibility

[00:32:25] to deal with and to handle, not ours.

[00:32:27] Very important, very important.

[00:32:29] And I might just add so you if you are in a new relationship,

[00:32:34] you know, whether it's a friendship or whatever, and that is happening.

[00:32:38] Responding that way is just going

[00:32:40] to begin something that's going to continue.

[00:32:42] So thinking about is that really how I want to be in a relationship?

[00:32:46] Is that how I want to relate to people?

[00:32:48] But then I also want to just acknowledge

[00:32:50] that if it happens to be something where you really do feel like your

[00:32:53] safety is threatened, it's OK to choose to be passive.

[00:32:57] But then to end that relationship,

[00:32:59] to set a boundary when you do feel safe.

[00:33:01] Oh, my God, that's such a good point because you don't want to keep

[00:33:04] asserting and reaffirming your boundaries if it's going to lead

[00:33:07] to an unsafe situation for sure.

[00:33:09] Yes. And then you can set your boundaries around how much time and energy you

[00:33:12] give to that relationship thereafter once you've got distance between you.

[00:33:16] So I think another part of this is also being able to cultivate more

[00:33:19] of your own self-love as well, because I think a lot of times we end up

[00:33:24] in these coercive relationships because maybe potentially we don't love ourselves

[00:33:29] as much as we should or we could.

[00:33:32] And that other person who might be showing love towards us,

[00:33:35] even if it's in an abusive way,

[00:33:37] in some ways, in the beginning of the relationship, it sort of fills that hole

[00:33:40] for a while until it doesn't anymore.

[00:33:43] And then those holes get bigger over time because then you start to,

[00:33:47] if you're hearing this abusive person telling you about all the things

[00:33:49] that you're not good at or that you're not this and you don't,

[00:33:52] you're not beautiful enough and you're not thin enough and you're not,

[00:33:55] all these things can sort of start to eat away at that.

[00:33:58] Yeah, things that tear you down.

[00:34:00] So even if you started out feeling pretty good about yourself,

[00:34:03] that can happen during the course of a relationship.

[00:34:06] But certainly if you enter, then they use that,

[00:34:09] they take advantage of that vulnerability.

[00:34:11] So yes, working on seeing, loving yourself is like,

[00:34:15] that's the most important thing in the world.

[00:34:18] And it does not mean you're selfish.

[00:34:20] It does not mean you're self-centered either.

[00:34:23] It's important to think well of ourselves.

[00:34:26] And that doesn't mean, you know,

[00:34:28] maybe we have some things we'd like to change, whatever that might be,

[00:34:31] but we can still love ourselves.

[00:34:32] I was just reading something today,

[00:34:34] an inspirational book that I have on loving your body.

[00:34:38] Even if, you know, you kind of wish that you,

[00:34:40] you want to lose a little bit of weight or you want to do something or other,

[00:34:44] you can still love your body.

[00:34:45] And that's a huge problem for many people,

[00:34:48] for probably a lot of us.

[00:34:49] And we can see why because we get all kinds of messages through the media,

[00:34:54] if not through our relationship.

[00:34:56] So loving yourself is really important.

[00:34:57] Being kind to yourself, you know,

[00:35:00] would you really say some of the things

[00:35:01] that you say in your head to your friends?

[00:35:04] Probably not.

[00:35:05] No.

[00:35:08] Definitely not, no.

[00:35:10] Yeah, being kind.

[00:35:12] We can't know what we don't know,

[00:35:13] so stop shaming yourself for getting into that relationship in the first place

[00:35:18] because first of all, they probably didn't show it to you right away.

[00:35:22] And second of all, you know, that's how we learn.

[00:35:24] We learn from our mistakes.

[00:35:26] We learn from our life experiences.

[00:35:29] Be kind.

[00:35:30] Yeah.

[00:35:30] And I think sometimes like looking back on patterns of relationships,

[00:35:33] you might notice that maybe there was a theme of these types of relationships

[00:35:36] that you've gotten into time and time again.

[00:35:38] But it's not until you have the awareness,

[00:35:41] you know, maybe that you have at this moment

[00:35:43] that you can then make a different choice and a different decision going forward.

[00:35:47] So there's no point in beating yourself up over it.

[00:35:49] It's just the lesson is going to happen when it happens.

[00:35:52] And when it happens, then you can choose something different

[00:35:55] and you can move forward and you can stop beating yourself up over it.

[00:35:58] And you get to then change the trajectory of your life from that point forward.

[00:36:02] And that's a beautiful thing.

[00:36:04] Yeah, and being able to pin your hope onto a better future

[00:36:09] than what maybe you've experienced in the past

[00:36:11] and allow that to pull you forward as opposed to harkening on what has happened before.

[00:36:16] Exactly.

[00:36:17] I know I've had people that I worked with say that it was really important to them

[00:36:21] to hear not just story.

[00:36:23] I mean, it's important for them to know that the same things happen to other people,

[00:36:27] but to hear people's success stories.

[00:36:29] And so you can look for those as well

[00:36:32] because there are a lot of success stories.

[00:36:34] There are people who are able to create the lives they want,

[00:36:38] even though maybe their ex partner is still being abusive.

[00:36:41] So that's important to have that hopefulness.

[00:36:45] And of course, just having other people encourage and support you in that.

[00:36:48] Yeah. So I just want to say one thing.

[00:36:50] I feel like there's a lot of online communities

[00:36:53] where you can maybe find some support as well,

[00:36:55] in addition to getting professional support from a therapist or a coach.

[00:36:58] But I would also just caution because I've been a part of some of these communities

[00:37:02] where you probably might want to consider setting an internal boundary

[00:37:05] around how often you're participating in that community

[00:37:08] because there can also be a lot of women in there who are venting.

[00:37:11] And you're just hearing all the negative all the time,

[00:37:13] hearing all the negative.

[00:37:14] So just be mindful of how much you're taking in from the outside world

[00:37:19] about other people's experiences.

[00:37:21] Yes, it's good to have validation,

[00:37:23] but at the same time, make sure that you are also getting those glimmers

[00:37:26] like you're talking about of those success stories

[00:37:28] or those positive or inspiring stories of women who've gone through

[00:37:31] and pulled through and now are creating a life that they love on the other side.

[00:37:35] I agree. You know, it's a stage that we do need to be heard.

[00:37:39] It's helpful to be heard and to be able to say our piece.

[00:37:43] But if we stay there, that's too much.

[00:37:45] That's not going to carry us forward.

[00:37:47] So I think that the success stories often come from reading books

[00:37:51] and that kind of thing, maybe blogs, maybe a little bit more,

[00:37:55] because not to put people down when they need to do that,

[00:37:57] but that's not the stage that you're at.

[00:38:00] You need to move on to the next stage.

[00:38:02] Yes. And Jennifer, you have a blog, right?

[00:38:05] I do have a blog. Yes.

[00:38:06] Yes, I do.

[00:38:07] You can go to my website and subscribe to my blog.

[00:38:11] I do that monthly.

[00:38:12] I also include a newsletter that has resources such as your podcast,

[00:38:17] for instance, other things that I find that I think could be helpful

[00:38:20] to both survivors and also those who work with them.

[00:38:23] Amazing. Before we end our conversation today,

[00:38:25] is there anything else that you think might be really helpful

[00:38:28] or pertinent for our listeners to hear from you

[00:38:30] about how to become more resilient

[00:38:32] and how to come through in a successful way

[00:38:36] from these relationships where they can start to live

[00:38:39] a better, more positive life going forward?

[00:38:42] Well, the thing that just came to me was

[00:38:45] when you said to become more resilient.

[00:38:47] I think first of all, recognizing how resilient they've been,

[00:38:50] and it might not feel that way to them, but think about it.

[00:38:53] So when you get in a relationship,

[00:38:56] it's important to give the other person the benefit of the doubt.

[00:38:59] It's important to cooperate.

[00:39:01] It's important to expect that they have your best interest at heart

[00:39:06] until they show that they don't.

[00:39:09] Identifying that, OK, I gave them the benefit of the doubt

[00:39:12] when it first started to happen and then it can become more difficult.

[00:39:16] That wasn't a bad thing.

[00:39:17] That is the strength of being in a healthy relationship.

[00:39:20] However, when someone is willing to exert power and control

[00:39:25] and to take advantage of that and it isn't mutual,

[00:39:29] they don't do it in return, then you can learn from that.

[00:39:33] But it was a resilient strategy to begin with.

[00:39:36] Listening to podcasts, reading books,

[00:39:38] those are all resilient strategies.

[00:39:40] Reaching out for help, telling maybe a family member or friend

[00:39:44] expecting to get some support.

[00:39:46] Even if they don't give you that support,

[00:39:47] that was a resilient strategy for people who feel the need to call the police.

[00:39:52] That's a resilient strategy.

[00:39:54] And then there are these things that you learned

[00:39:57] that we've been talking about today that continue to build that resilience.

[00:40:01] But I want people to know that,

[00:40:03] to recognize that they did have some things.

[00:40:05] It's not like they didn't in the beginning.

[00:40:08] The fact that they kept going, right?

[00:40:10] And they found a way out, whether it took five years, ten years,

[00:40:14] two years, six months, whatever it may be, doesn't matter.

[00:40:17] I've read some stuff on transitioning, any kind of change.

[00:40:21] It often takes five years or more.

[00:40:24] And I'm not just talking about leaving an abusive relationship.

[00:40:27] So I like to kind of normalize that.

[00:40:29] And especially when people are throwing confusing things at you

[00:40:33] and undermining your self-esteem,

[00:40:35] that makes it all the more difficult.

[00:40:36] And I think that there's even a statistic that says

[00:40:38] that it takes women about seven to eight times

[00:40:41] to get out of an abusive relationship.

[00:40:42] And there's no time frame linked to that.

[00:40:45] So whether that's over ten years, thirty years,

[00:40:48] six years, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

[00:40:50] But it's so hard and it's not easy.

[00:40:52] So the fact that you're listening to even this podcast,

[00:40:55] this conversation,

[00:40:56] proves that you've got evidence to your mind

[00:40:59] that you are resilient and you are taking steps forward.

[00:41:02] And even to your point, Jennifer,

[00:41:04] at the beginning of this conversation,

[00:41:05] even if they're small baby steps,

[00:41:07] every little tiny baby step that you take makes a difference.

[00:41:11] One step at a time. That's all we can do.

[00:41:13] It's all we can do.

[00:41:14] Thank you so much, Jennifer.

[00:41:16] This has been such a great conversation

[00:41:18] and you gave us so many great tips and tools and strategies

[00:41:21] that I know are going to be super, super helpful for our audience.

[00:41:24] And I really appreciate you.

[00:41:26] I appreciate the work that you're doing in this world.

[00:41:28] If you have not already read Jennifer's book,

[00:41:31] if you've listened to the previous episode

[00:41:32] and maybe you purchased it already and you have read it,

[00:41:34] but if you haven't,

[00:41:35] I highly, highly encourage you to go out there

[00:41:37] and grab yourself a copy, read her book.

[00:41:40] It is full of information and resources and validation.

[00:41:43] And she's offering listeners 20% off of her incredible book.

[00:41:47] So we will have that link for you in the show notes.

[00:41:49] Be sure to make sure you check it out.

[00:41:51] Thank you, Jennifer.

[00:41:52] Thank you for having me.

[00:41:53] Until next week, everyone be well.

[00:41:56] Thank you for tuning in to Awaken Her.

[00:41:58] Today's conversation may have ended,

[00:42:00] but your journey towards healing and empowerment is ongoing.

[00:42:04] Remember, every challenge you face

[00:42:06] is an opportunity to grow stronger and more resilient.

[00:42:09] If our stories today inspired you,

[00:42:11] consider sharing this episode

[00:42:13] with someone who needs these empowering messages.

[00:42:16] I'm Charissa Stepp, cheering you on as you take the steps

[00:42:19] to heal, grow and transform your life.

[00:42:21] Keep believing in yourself and until next time, stay empowered.